Zionism 3.0 (2016) – Progressive American Judaism and Entrenched Israeli Orthodoxy



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welcome to our session this afternoon without being rushing around but you got about what 18 minutes so standing up and walking over here getting some sunshine so I hope we're all a little bit more energized it's been an incredible morning and just another shout out to the JCC for being the center of this amazing important conversation that we all need to have and I feel sorry for people couldn't be here so our workshop today has an interesting an interesting title right progressive American Judaism and entrenched Israeli orthodoxy can they find common ground it's that's not a leading question by any means right and it's not really a fair fight here today looking at our panel or port Daniel gordis I think was labeled as the representative of Orthodoxy which is a label that we will be quickly to sway this up he'll deal with it and I don't want this to be a battle it's not going to be a fight it's going to be a discussion of the topic and I I wanted to give each of the panelists first about five minutes to to look at the question as opposed can the American liberal movement American liberal Jews find common ground with the Israeli revenant with the state of or non-state of religious pluralism and in Israel is it disingenuous for us to to think that American lil or juice can overlook that rift that has been created or are they separate conversations are they conversations first I wanted to turn to my not wealth on to my right and she is a politician and a foreign policy expert among other things she was the foreign policy advisor to then Vice Prime Minister shamone Paris she is a senior fellow at the Jewish people Policy Institute yeah there it is an a former member of Knesset and after she speaks we'll hear from dr. Daniel Hortis who is a fellow at be a vice president senior vice president that Sheldon said you'd let me get that right I think it's fair to call you a hundred of Zionist and Jewish thought sure you write about it you think about a books about it we look to your words on that topic and the founding dean of the Ziegler's school for Rebennack studies at the University of Judaism in Los Angeles was it called back then it was then okay and on my far right we will then hear from rabbi Dennis Eisner Flint's Peninsula Temple beth-el in san mateo who sits on the israel and global committee of our local san francisco-based federation and among the Northern California Board of a and he will be speaking I think a voice that has not yet been represented in this conference which is the pulpit rabbi in our own community and what's really going on on the ground so I look forward to what he has to say so first let's turn to I not can we find common ground between American reform conservative Jews and the insurance Israeli orthodoxy and as a self-professed secular Jew you say you use the word atheist does it frustrate you that we keep running on this topic so today I posted a little bit here and i said i'll be participating in to discussions the first should be should we be equal stakeholders in common future yes and does orthodoxy progressive Judaism have common ground and very easy for people to follow my phone so I have a colleague at the Jewish people Policy Institute and he wrote a wonderful piece I urge you to look it up i think it was published in at times of israel and he made the argument he said American Jews are Protestants Israeli Jews are Catholics and basically argue that thanks to your point as well than you mentioned that the way that each community developed its relationship to notion of religion comes from a very different historical Greenwich and as a result we find it very difficult to talk and that Zionism came from the European Catholic and later Republican tradition where the state basically subjugates the church in america you talk about separation of church and state and as much as you're proud of it i know you're still struggling with it but in Europe they don't have separation of church and state they have subjugation of church two states that was part of the battle and this is the model that Israel adopted that you basically subjugate the church for the national political purposes as a foundry maker as an element of ritual but it's a very very different model and as a result we also find it very difficult to have a discussion and one of those moments and as a result also Israel liberals who are by and large atheists militant anti-clerical I would have called it at your religious but anti-clerical do not want to see religion play a role in their lives in the religious clerics play a role in their lives that's where you see most liberals in Israel and in America liberals actually have placed from religion which is a very Protestant version the individual the one where you have voiced developed and the issue with women of the wall and I'm also very much a self-professed feminine and I asked the question about the question of the synagogue in New York very progressive one that asked me why and the feminist and I not party to the battle of women of the wall and I tell them look I have to tell you for me the whole notion that the cartel is a synagogue is alien the whole notion of playing at the Kotel is an alien notion to me so whether you fight praying this way or this way I just can't get my kishkas excited about this and a lot of people and women were deeply offended by what i said and i remember being even glue baffled that they were offended because in israel such an obvious position to look as a feminist in israel I have a whole host of issues that I care about and how exactly to pray the wall is not high on the list of those issues oh and it really was a moment for me for better understanding why like Israeli liberals who are supposed to be supposedly the natural allies of American liberals even they being from two different historical branches of how Judaism develop find it very difficult to have that conversation and that also explains why it's different to mobilize politically I was involved in these issues in the Israeli Parliament in Knesset and a lot of Americans are also baffled again at the failure to mobilize politically always really hate the rabbited except i mean i think almost all but we'd operating with religious your debt how is it that it's not grown over and again now sean has another great piece where he talks about the rabbinate as a monopolistic utility the basically should think about the Israeli Rabbinate the way to think about the Israeli Electric Company it's a it's a monopoly it's a utility that provides it's not a source of meaning and spirituality religion here in Judaism it gives you the occasional services shouldn't they got real marriage whatever and then you don't deal with it because of it so much it's a monopoly it's her optic statistic that's what you expect for Napoles and end of story and most people are not going to bother kind of fighting politically to change this they deal with it as little as they can and also think about it when are people going to politically mobilize to overthrow the rebbe what they're not married here right they're single they're drinking they're going out the last thing they're going to do is mobilize against the gym then they need the person they want to marry well now they're part of their marriage so they're not going to fight against the rabbit they're like let's just find a way to make it at least painful way possible and once they're married they don't care about it again so politically also for things for political mobilization something has to be an ongoing issue and for a lot of Israeli this is not an ongoing issue oh so putting all this but to the historical and political context they think should at least give you a sense of why even though we supposedly share the same Valley literalism and it's far as I'm concerned anyone can get whatever kind of juvie want but political change if you want to think about political change in Israel away through the rabbinate think about it not in terms of spirituality Fleur ilysm think about it is trying to introduce competition to the Israeli Electric Company and then you get a sense of the mag to the charge well that was a very interesting perspective not perhaps one that we're so used to hearing and as someone who lived in Israel for years when you say most you know Israeli liberals are anti-clerical that's not the experience of the American expat community in Israel because we bring our religiosity with us in Israel so my conversations in Israel are usually with my fellow expats it's always good to hear from named Oren it's really liberals and you also said that most Israelis wish the rabbinate would would go away or they ignore it when actually the the latest AJC poll that was released the results were released on friday show yet again that about half of all is just half of all Israelis believe that the Orthodox monopoly over religious life should be preserved and about half state no it should go away so and we may be talking to ourselves from a certain liberal elite position I what I was going to ask Daniel to a different question but perhaps you like to respond to some things that Anna said or just take tackle the question as it was presented to can we find common ground since I've you represent the way they should it's not working this can't even agree on a clicking here but let me say a couple of these very quickly first of all I agree almost everything that he not said in order for political change to happen what mom would be by the way is the constituents and there's no constituencies arguing for reform or conservative Jews in Israel because there are very few reform or conservative Jews in Israel snake is a conservative rather that's what I am the reason is very few conservative Jews in Israel is twofold very few conservative reduce make aliana and the conservative movement in Israel has been remarkably and impressively ineffective at reading getting any realtors exceptions here in there the report movement is done much better but I community make fun of yourself for a bit kind of anybody else our movement of these the conservative movement in Israel is a non-starter for a whole array of reasons I can't get in my five minutes but part of the reason there's no change is there's no there's no there's literally no movement doesn't affect most people number two I agree with you I also consider myself a feminist and I also really about the cocoa I live the 20 minute walk from the Kotel I don't think I've been there twice in the last ten years once I know I had to go for apartments with a post friends I like went muttering another and then paid I can't stand it I also think by the way this global you I want to make sure that you don't escape on the way I thought that the women of the wall actually picked the wrong fight be cross I actually think also the focal should not be a synagogue but the people who think that it should be a synagogue are the people who pray there every day three times a day people who want to go once a month or once a week to make a political statement it seems to me should not do that the reform battle should be over conversion and marriage and you know equal funding of synagogues you don't realize but then you don't have any intention of going to fulfill three times a day every day in Dobbin there we all know that they don't have it anywhere three times a day so why pick on the most sensitive spot let's deal with the legislative issues that it seems to me are much more central to the health of the non-orthodox movements now at the Conservative rabbi I'm not allowed to do marriage rights I'm not reveal some I've ever got married 56 years ago and she was then in law school and she was told there's no way to escape the rabbinate you to get married outside the rabbinate if you ever get divorced you have to go through the rabbinate and she was convinced though she was a heaping reverse in law school she was going to be the one to figure out how this could be done legally illogically blah blah blah so she met with this rabbi and this expert I've made for this rabbi rabbi and not expert and paid for those two and she wrote this whole thing up and I finally she went to the boob rich it was both like I graduated miss you both had a very impressive lawyer and he SAT her down we told her in no uncertain terms there's no getting around this this is the law you can get hired by you know monkey wherever you want you ever get divorced have to go through the rabbinate you're not going to break through that well and you should know by the way that anybody who does a lot of wedding them Julian are bigger whistling too long whatever wedding industrial not through the rabbinate is actually subject to arrest technically so this she's telling me and she's crying of course and she says Wi-Fi in jail you know like two years ago meetings and Wi-Fi whether or not there was actually wide by jill but i didn't in front of about 600 people and video cameras meaning i did the way a knowledge i thought i wanted me to do the wedding but the more people that do that the more we're actually going to be able to break the back of the rabbinate and there are lots of there's likely hundreds of couples that are doing this every year and there's competition within the rabbinate and so on and so and this leads me to the question of whether there's any common ground between progressive Jews and the rally but it very honest that I don't know you're off the last time so now this is the point where you sort of fasten your seat belt and retired restore your tray tables with original mint block right position but not only ultra-orthodox people but mainstream or the Box people any regard or the box but sort of standard Israelis see when they see progressive Judaism is it Judaism it doesn't require anything that's what they see that's what they say they see I'm not among them you can't shoot me what you can but that's what they see and they say by the way even the secular people are among us we at least have to do something for three years like there's a sense of commandment this by virtue of big partner friendly society so even if i eat trade for yoga pport there's a sense of obligation to the larger hole that for which I have to suspend my autonomy and Israelis will say either a more sophisticated language plus sophisticated language that's always been key to a kind of Judaism that can preserve itself and sustain itself for generations in centuries what I see in America and progressive Judaism they don't know the nominate you so much what I see is not sustainable so this summons you very much me to get all worked up about something that is not really sustainable so you just should just know that part of the dialogue is a dialogue about forget politics forget rabbis to get rabbinate what makes a sustainable Judaism it's actually a fascinating question that choose i'll be talking about even if israel or not part of the picture around let me tell you why having said all of that i actually think that the wrapping is a very important mission even for you and got to tackle it in the right the rapid exit of portage is a very interesting book by in which she talks about it's only in Hebrews what kind of doesn't make a huge many different you the name of the up and I think there was actually a précis online somewhere in English but this event it's been an analysis of Eskenazi Judaism versus miss rafi Judaism so the true that came from Eastern Europe d'tetramand rusape from North Africa you know Yemen Iraq Iran etc etc anybody points out in fact don't forget majority of Israelis dollar Mizrahi not astronauts you and I or all the minority most of us in this room okay he says the Ashkenazi Jews obey their rabbis more Mizrahi Jews respect their rabbis mark / Ashkenazi Jews official obedience form is rocky Jews at the sense of loyalty and reverence that means that it's a kind of a suspension of the theological philosophical rigor that many of us raising these questions and it's much more instinctive that's okay the problem is at the cheap from and it was actually feeds off of that instinctive oil thing that's why you get these numbers that you were talking about before the chief rabbinate to me it's problem is I don't really care if it is true oh I'm just going to be a little bit you know keep you awake I'm not really careful districts conservatorships i care is that it's actually projecting to six million Jews in Israel a completely myopic view of what treasonous forget the 15 performances and their ATM conservative Jews the other way around there's millions and billions of Jews in Israel about eighty percent of cruising as well who are not religious who see Judaism as something pathetic and medieval and tragedy of a sheep rabbit it is not what happens to populations for mostly all turbines in the country but it's the richness of Jewish life that actually does that such as very few Jews because we have the most medieval most literally non-scientists or anti-zionist rabbis now hold up in the office of the chief rabbinate the office of the chief rabbinate actually move out okay most homo the main thing sinigang because that was owned by the government what should we do and here's mama to say what I said that to you could occur to my lap what I hope to do it is again you gotta figure out how do you fight your battle without think seen as or being functioning as an enemy of the Jewish state or giving fuel to the fires of those who are enemies of the Jews stay there were grandpa's industry Lord unbelievable human beings who are worth the box every way Shem on our forum who could be the crap the rabbinic year of economy you are ever up because they are so deep so thoughtful so decent so whatever i'll give you just a couple of things Betty loud is an example but when I won't give you a bunch of is just take one for now but there are many like him there's a dozens that meets stuff who ran against the courage to drive I tried to peel that there's chief rabbi last night he's probably too liberal by the way you would look at him and say my god how far right he knew me well far but there we go much further wise were actually in office but it's not as a decent human being he's not a huge fan of conservative judaism is not a huge been a Reform Judaism but he's a sophisticated guy he's a thoughtful guy and as many rabbis who run much more liberal open orthodoxy chivo what would happen if that group of rabid that was hitter's canada had 10 million dollars at this position every year to begin to make a case to rank-and-file Israelis about the richness of the Jewish tradition on billboards on television through this and prevent what if basically seriously but this real had a broader problem but it still had a water problem they solve the water problem before technology changed it was back years by having ads on TV go waste water and then show the ground Jelena was on sides of buses water problem run away there was an of them some 15 20 years ago for Israelis we're picking wildflowers the wild flowers were going out business so to speak they have a big huge campaign don't pick the laptops people stop licking the 10 flowers now they don't obey non smoking signs they don't obey realities are opening influenced by things that actually grab their attention and grab their interest there is a flourishing of liberal Orthodox institutions all over us the country where people are going to learn to embrace etc etc etc the thing to do is to actually expose Israelis to the real fascinating the Hartman style David Hartman about nothing to lose now and God libraries father passed when evaristo wasn't worth about traveler was an unbelievable human being and what go on and on and on it they had unlimited access really televisions and radios and internet sites and so on and so forth they could create a conversation inside the Jewish state about what's the richness of Jewish life so the answer the question is does today's too aggressive Judaism in the States and the rapid have anything in common no not really but the second best question is there were four what do we do and I would say what we want to do is not take on the State of Israel and not say that because Israel you know maligns my version of Judaism out of the game is real nobody's my version of duties because there's five people like manager haha no amount of political force but you want is a Jewish state which takes the richness of Judaism seriously and engenders have found the profound conversation based on the richness of 2,000 4,000 whatever you want to say years of jewish tradition that's a matter not of pulling back resources but of giving resources in particular kinds of way and that would make all the people in this room very active and participants in a serious conversation that even of those before remain or the box and some of you remain conservative reform there would be a conversation to be had well thank you very much for simplifying conversation and you actually set set up a really good segue into what i wanted to ask rabbi Eisner to to look at I mean first obviously answering the premise of this session what common ground can be found between progressive American Judaism and the entrenched Israeli orthodoxy but Daniel you brought up American as American Jews who say the Israeli state does not support my vision of Israel therefore I am out of the conversation we have American Jews who say the Israeli government does not support my political viewpoint visa fee the Palestinians therefore and out of the conversation in our community in Northern California we had four years ago the year of civil dialed discourse simply because we were having so much trouble finding a common place a safe place to have the Israel conversation in our own communities and Rabbi Eisner as a very well-known pro-israel advocate as well as reform rabbi I wonder if you would look at the the question before us both as a pulpit rabbi and as I hope that rabbi has had to deal with Northern California Jews who have trouble with Israel yes sir so first of all what he said as long as i'm done i want to start by saying you know first of all i'm really honored actually I've been asked to be here when I was asked to be here I mentioned it to my wife and I showed my wife the program and she looked down the list and she sees Danny Bordas is here and a nod is here and she sees that the hood of her church here and she says so I come here really from a different point of view than really what we've been listening to and I'm actually really glad that I was able to make it originally my schedule today didn't have me getting here right now and thank goodness i came early here everybody who spoke before me because not only does it affect the way that I think but it teaches me and it helps me think about how i'm going to teach because really for me a lot of what we're talking about and what has come up only in small segments and the small segments was about educating our children but i think it's about educating ourselves this idea that orthodoxy is just one group is something that those of us outside of your binocs world we we shouldn't say those things because it's just not true the orthodox mean Israel can you know some people divide it into you know either Ashkenazi and ants party but it can be five groups its national Zionism it's all different types of Orthodox groups and I think we really need to be educated and you flip that over to the other side if there's any thought that the Orthodox the orthodoxy the entrenched orthodoxy in Israel has any real idea of what progressive Jews are like in North America they don't they don't really and the interactions between the groups are not at the level of what they should be could be ought to be if we were talking about common ground at a very very deep level are we talking about common ground on a level so that we could coexist and be in the same place and be together without trying to kill one so I think those are different things and I think we ought to think about as matter of fact we're planning a trip to Israel and I and I keep rethinking about how do I introduce Israel to the community it used to be for a very long time so I was a rabbi at motion bowl of our temple in Los Angeles 3,000 families we met a huge huge congregation and for decades the relationship that that congregation act with Israel it's one of the you know the really one of the bastions of reform progressive Judaism not only on the west coast but maybe in the world and the way that they had with Israel is that the rabbi went to Israel and he came back and he told everybody about Israel that was the relationship now luckily for me my colleague who is so close to me an age and I had to leave the congregation if I wanted to be senior rabbi because we're basically the same generation route I speak later when he became senior rabbi he said he's going to change that his job is going to be I'm going to take people with me to Israel we have to go to Israel we have to be in the land we have to see it with our own eyes and that was one of the great moments for me in my rabbinate and what I brought with me when I moved up here to the bay area so that actually one of the very first things I kidwai was named the senior rabbi Peninsula temple beth-el was I started planning a trip that's the first thing I did before I did anything else before I had a meeting with the board before I looked at the budget really in detail before I did anything I started planning a trip to Israel and I think that we in the progressive movement need to face the fact and i think it was has been said is that our relation we're not making hotly out of the way that the orthodox community is gone when something happens in israel when a war breaks out we are pulling our kids out of programs and bringing them home rather than letting them stay there and be there and be these are these are things that have been done you cannot unring that Bell I cannot unring that Bell but I can change it for the future so I really believe that this idea of creating a common ground starts with education it starts with a desire at least to get to know one another really get to know one another does it mean that we have to agree it doesn't mean that we have to be friends doesn't mean I have to agree politically but i think if we could if we get out some understanding at a deep level who each other where we come from then maybe we can also see where could there be common ground somebody said to me West Africa was it was built it was sitting right here in front roses all this is great now what do we do what do we do so I think that that's where the pulpit rabbi comes in I think that's where my job different from I think where the two of you is different from their institutions that you are responsible fielding constituencies that you speak to I think that my responsibility is on that front lawn it's on that front line of saying number one let's educate ourselves let's educate ourselves not without each other let's educate ourselves about Judaism about Jewish customs let's not be so afraid of those things that we kind of Dodge for many many years for lots of different reasons but let's dig deep let's pick up the difficult texts right now we're studying on on shabbat morning we're studying the book of jeremiah anybody studying the book of jeremiah not a big uplifting story to this video now they're feeling with you I'm ready for the day but it's something that if we neglect we don't study that story if you don't look at that text we don't see it as part of our common tradition then we can't have so I take that responsibility incredibly serious i made a serious thing to me that that is one of my obligations and the next thing is is also now i want to go to something you said earlier is really stuff you talked about that our discussions are about territories and borders Palestinians external threats and then our story is about the rabbit and I think that if we only let ourselves become bifurcated into that is our relationship with Israel we're in trouble all of us and we have to know they're here as yahoo to comment even if this again they're years we can't pretend as it doesn't exist but it can't be the totality of our relationship and so who has the responsibility to ensure that in the progressive American Jewish community that that doesn't become our totality it has it has to be on my shoulders I have to be smart enough to learn from my colleagues who are sitting next to me have to be smart enough to listen I have to be brave enough to not get defensive when somebody disagrees with trust me that's not easy for it's not I'm just being honest but I shall learn to not do that I have to be open to all those things and then we have to make sure that our relationship our education the things that we do in order to build common ground in order to build some type of relationship so that at the end of all of this what do we have we have a strong we have a safe we have a vibrant we have a religious we have a Jewish we have all these things this is the Israel that we want and we need and we can't back away from that but we're only going to do that if we open ourselves up to all the possibilities at Israel to be so I'll finish with when I mentioned a suit before we started but I have this trip coming the idea of the trip coming up to Israel is again I you know when you guys mentioned the wall it is my least favorite place to visit when we go to Israel and of course when I take a first convert their what do they want they got to see the wall we got to walk down those steps in the old city where you get that first blips and you know people say Chevy on and they go down there and I'm like how about it i'm going to stand in the back and it's not i don't I for me it's it's an amazing historical site but it's also someone else's shul and if i want to go to someone else's shul i know that i go and i'm going to go under their auspices i'm going to do what they say no doves happening that I don't believe that the women in Israel's right to don't believe in a gallop area is more stop I knew but I don't know if that's the fight I want fun I think marriage and conversion much more serious fight than the wall and I think we kind of list that you know you know and so let me know the trip is going to be about not about seeing sights but about getting to know it's not going to be about going to Masada and have done a story it's going to be about meeting the shopkeeper in Tel Aviv and getting to know that person it's about going to go to the north and do a cooking class with air women and learn how to go into their home's meet them get to know them these are Arab Israelis that's that that is Israel we can't deny you we can put a blinder on pretend they don't exist well guess what they still do right so those types of things get to know the people get to know the people our deepest people so go to place might be nap so you talk about atheists go to the secular your Sheba and Tel Aviv we're going to study text in a secular yeshiva Dobie how fascinating how fascinating that exists we ought to be able to do this I'm going to end with one last thing there there are mistakes that progressive Jews perform Jews have made in terms of their relationship with Israel that I still believe to this they're being held against progressive Jewish movement in our beginnings when we were founded we decided that wasn't going to be about Israel was it that wasn't going to be our focus was going to be about North America we made a choice a long time ago and it's taking us time to get past that bad choice that is just something to better things you can't get rid of it with that said we cannot have it Israel that doesn't respect the things that we do in order to better the world in order to better the Jewish community order to bring more of our tradition to as many people as possible and there has to be some appreciation at that level that that is really at the heart of what we're doing why we're doing it and I think once we get to those moments we're going to have a chance thank you so much for bringing the conversation back to the importance of finding common ground and getting some ideas about that and I want to circle back to a not in particular but to both of you who live in israel and i love that we have a native Warren's Railly and American news may Dahlia and American rabbi go this year amount with all due respect to what you said about Israeli liberals being profoundly disinterested in these questions that are so important to so many american progressive jews and that really is what we're talking about today in the session which is what to do with american progressive jews who are so concerned about religious quality in israel and let that and they let that color their approach to their own Zionism into their own interest or disinterest in the Jewish state again this AJC poll that came out on friday showed that yes american jews are much more concerned about religious equality in Israel than they are concerned about the needs of Jewish peoplehood and that was disturbing for knee to read but it must be true if the poll said it I wonder up who know I anyway I wonder if you would respond to whether you whether you agree with the premise that progressive American Jews are concerned by the lack of religious quality in Israel do you think it is overblown and what kind of common ground do you do you propose so it's not over blown from their perspective it is merely irrelevant from in Israel and that something i do also a lot of work and presenting it in Israel I cannot tell you how wait people find my descriptions of form or conservative judaism I go to school really anything they really think it's not it I mean it's not you did them and and these are kids in high school so I understand why American Jews care about that up I'm just trying to give a sense of how American Israelis do not either oh but but what what I want to say is in terms of what to do your vision is entirely what I do i do not want more liberal orthodox rabbi there's no such thing maybe there is in America there is no such thing from my perspective an Orthodox rabbi in Israel as long as he goes with haha even the future a little more liberally it's not a what I would consider a limo I'm not interested in that and for me what I would like to review is the radical revolutionary Zionism because again she would let there were two major responses to the challenges of modernity one with Reform Judaism that became American initial in Germany Levin in America and it's a very American form of response to the questions of how to be Jewish in modernity and the other form of reforming Judaism for modernity with Sian ISM Zionism is Reform Judaism it's an hour reform to Tunis and what happened is because on is it was also in the business of State Building in addition to revolutionize in Judaism it had to prioritize and at the moment of state creation it made a few decisions and bargains that came from being you know there were a lot of tasks to achieve and one of them was to outsource certain questions and as a result to stop the process of revolutionising Jewish life which design isn't in the beginning that was one of the biggest things they did from everything to changing how we celebrate our holidays and the calendar and the scene and almost I was once said that they're the largest number of bible reading atheists exists in israel and i mean there was a tremendous system generic energy of with forming Jewish life which basically stopped when everything had to be mobilized for establishing the state and fighting for and what I'm interested in doing is not having some more liberal Orthodox rabbi that I'm not interested I don't want that and that since I'm a bit of the leninist version think that rabbit it terrible so that ultimately people comprise against but the presidency yeah hug but i have my vision and actually it sounds better in hebrew another lot of things and getting angry but it's from liquid to evident sorry from robin hood's delivery from other to the government is an institution for people without sovereignty it was existed it had with created precisely for people in an age of sovereignty the rabbi's can have roles as teachers that's it I don't want and I don't think rabbis should have any role aside from again a small community teaching role in a sovereign state and and I think this is the revolutionary part of Zionism that had installed and I want to renew that and as I said that's what I said that I said when they were debate like recognizing conservative Jews or function ism I said this is all paragraphs but actually I don't think rabbis should have a safe surfing on a political site on conversion and marriage conversion and marriage should be on a sovereign state determined by the sovereign state and it's the end that's with being sovereign if and the fact that we still have a political role for rabbis is something that we made out of exigency a moment in our revolution but you need to retake that revolutionaries all just really I just want to respond because I think what you bring up is is such a critical point I think that in the founding of the state of israel those the religious groups experienced us a lot different then did the american progressive jewish community and the hostel lobby enlightenment so you have this moment when they're coming out of a different of Eastern Europe and maybe even coming out of the northern African kind of idea what not even i'm really understanding what the Enlightenment was then you had Western Europe and they're even more so you had North American Judaism and because of that that's one of the places where when we're searching for common ground from the get-go we didn't have it because they were coming from two different places so we're still even though we again I don't remember who said maybe it was you Danny baby it was included at 22 years it was you right it's like nothing it's like a blip well we for some reason want to have all all of us evolve and grow and understand and develop much quicker than time has allowed us to do it because it has been a blip of time from then to now and so I think you bring up a really important point and it's a the last we can't do the last thing we can't just have to be careful of continuously defining orthodoxy as the Judaism and that everything outside of it is something else and that is dangerous that is something I won't stand for and it's something that I would fight against completely and then hope that the rabbinic and Israel goes away so that lived in Israel we could function in places where if your rabbi delivered is whether it's Danny or whether it's me or you know Josh Weinberg or any of these great you know generic and you know your org a mile a bitch any of these great rabbis that exist in Israel let them decide for their community on conversion on Eric and I'm so in total agreement it was a little quick points first of all there is such a thing as before but rabbis all right there is Benny loud for example just hired a woman to be as Co his go religious whatever you want to call it he doesn't call the rabbi who cares I mean the fact is that he went way out on a limb and do that in 2016 Israel in Jerusalem in the hotbed of american olean rigid queens or the box Jews hugely brave thing to do Betty Lau's North place is a liberal my brother then they also a great book budget Amaya so I just been translated in english so you should studied out of your group okay that's number one ok remember to I'll tell you why you do one more word about graphics why we want more liberal Orthodox rabbis because there's certain twenty percent of Israeli Jews who are religious wonder children to religious in some levels there were some of the month let's assume for the time being that roughly approximately twenty percent of Israel is going to remain in the religious community are there going to be a boat political force you want them to be educated by people who are much more open to the west and are much more committed to pluralism and tolerance you do care they're not going to listen to you or the nationalism you're not listen to me they're going to listen to people or from their own community but I don't want people who talk about her example there was a rabbi that was just really lambasted because he came out and did this look at who was from Navy about the whole thing about gays in the army and he was my best in the Army forgiving payrolls and by self kinds of horrible things about gays again about the same look at Ben eval my house and recorded a YouTube that kind of went viral unfortunately join me in Hebrew but he really took up the fast and he said who the hell are you who the hell you to decide what God wants what God doesn't want it said you attention you do want more voices like that because you do want the thousands of young Israeli religious kids are growing up you should open other places to hear those voices so I think I think you really actually do here's the great failure of religious Zionism I mean I thought I want to mislead I'm actually not really much of a conservative communion anymore I you know sort of conservative I moved right long before I'm Israel all series of complicated ask my analyst but anyway I'm sorry I without looking between that's not all seriousness here's the great geyser as many of you probably know religious religious Judaism in Europe started out via in the anti-science right there was basically a tradition that goes way back to the Talmud but it goes a packager I actually in chapter 29 where the idea was that you should actually accept exile not my word there were exiled as God's punishment and for you to kind of hurry up the plot is for you to kind of go up against God and God will bring you back when God is ready to bring you back and from that perspective secular zionists was not the problem was it was secular it was fundamentally heretical because it was doing what God wanted people not to do over the course of my man Hitler helped her a lot religious Zionism came around to imprinted religious Judaism came around composing Zionism because there was no alternative because people were having Europe is going up in flames and then the absence of an alternative all of a sudden what not what can never happen in by the way that is very interesting in the 1960s the cute scene were about six percent of Israeli Israeli population never really got much more than that they're about five numbers to the right there are about six percent of the Israeli population and they were something like 30-something low forty percent of officers in the army 2016 Orthodox Jews religious Jews keep us from value omitted keepo types are approximately ten twelve percent of the israeli population and they are also high 30s something percent of military officers it's interesting to ask yourself which communities have actually taken zionist fervor and ideology of able to transmit it one of the great things is very interesting is once was the people seema no longer is and now it's exactly the kind of religious communities are that many people here are deeply on convoy so they've come around into certain ways that are very healthy and very positive what's their major intellectual and spiritual failing I think as nothing at the reform through done with interpreters haha religious you know we want to put our thoughts call everyone but traditional Jewish religious law developed over the course of thousands of years fundamentally and here Jacob bruisers research is critical and so forth developed fundamentally as a mechanism for keeping Jews Jewish as a minority a minority population in fundamentally hostile environment but you could eat but you can wear the whole track didn't avodah Zarah of idolatry is exactly about that etc etc what should change about Jewish law now that we're sovereign everything from how you pray how do you eat to everything what should change and you can tell me that now they're just going to go from a puddle in little rooms and the sellers initiative and now they're going to be the ones who are in charge of a country but what they do Eat Pray the mentorship adultery to the exactly the same I find that very very hard to believe your attitude to the non-jew not have to change once you are sovereign over several million people who are not juice what do you do about the relationship to the enemy it's one thing to talk about your relationship your enemy you're sitting in the yeshiva in Iowa lodging and it's another thing to talk about your relationship your enemy when you're sitting in the yeshiva on the west bank by the way your enemy is a real enemy he's not your friend you want us to kill you is your enemy and yet you're not passive it you're not unarmed and you're not me what should your relationship be these are the kinds of profound questions in fact no serious religious when I wouldn't before me conservative justify today they just haven't done it in Israel they've been put it anywhere the whole Jewish world has failed i think in asking a few very very very far-reaching questions we know how Jewish sovereignty as truly has challenged change etc Jewish peoplehood first of all we know how Jewish sovereignty has challenged change what it means to be a persecuted Jewish man already was not as a place to go right I mean he puts in Europe again we don't understand that right people would figure if I look at a critical angle throughput things and I'll stop other than a community called back i will if you take a walk there and Shabbat afternoon five years ago you're mostly keeper obviously there's a train track which goes through beta Papa which is an hour ago to hear some Arabic and you see our couples walking Gambon and it's very nice when I go running good morning see young arab women who were in the job and you got their iphones and everybody's it's like kind of bull right and you hear something glitched coasters a lot of immigrants in your Russian etc if you go there this coming Saturday for you take a look give it here with dupatta French our neighborhood is becoming French because as people are literally fling Europe and have to remember for all four criticize Israel they don't have the mother Brazil is a place to go basic gonna take anybody doesn't want to sound any better they're heavier unfortunately so needs to be fought during the past about this was important or not in the past that's a good it just the bakery's main everybody are getting much better so so you have to remember by the way also that sovereignty has changed a lot of things but it hasn't changed fundamentally the way we look at religion so it's going to take some time but we have to push and that's where I think our conversation our conversation should over and one thing and then I would whatever don't know sometime I don't asleep out about your Buddha also in the morning we disagree about a lot of things but I would say just about every conversation I don't have rated this little thing tonight a thoroughbred israeli guy since rubbish about table a lot thank God and he once blurted out I think I'm the only married siphon river back and I thought he was like this room I notice that if nobody everything changed but anyway he watched Florence's got half the conversations we have at this table I understand she was worried it was me not he was not being facetious at all as you diaspora juice for your fifties you were rude all the fun he says I was born in 1986 I have never entire life at a nano 7 when I was afraid that the State of Israel could be undone never it was the Army for seven years right he thought his share does everyone yeah you know Intifada unpleasant yes scariest read our country not a chance in before because we have a completely different way of looking at the world now here's where I think he's he's right about it is wrong about the father I think the younger generation of American Jews actually believes that Israel's security and survival is as guaranteed as the rising of the Sun and that is actually false where my son about his right is the Iraqis are not going to listen in the Iranian for a Canada listener Lebanese or not husbands not embarrass you can't defended by a pen you know a jet no tonight another book you just need European countries to start saying our airlines are not flying in your country and your Airlines not landing in our country the FAA did that in 2014 for about 36 hours I can't even felt very bad for saying to know better that was talking with water drip you know I think they actually couldn't get out of the country it's you can't it's impossible to describe exactly what that felt like are you both but no I'm saying if they say that your airline wouldn't be a little and that makes okay that's how the world brought South Africa to its knees because the world decided that South Africa was a fundamentally Atkins very poor immoral enterprise the nature that all of us myself I'm American Cancer Center but they did all of us American Jews who are frustrated with all sorts of things Dragon Age religion and occupation and there's a lot of things we frustrated about have to be very careful about is not to put fuel in the engines of those people who want to bring Israel to its knees though he brought South Africa which means the IDF cannot stop that campaign and it can happen and if you don't believe me ask South Africans it can happen oily discipline and the world's getting closer and closer and closer to that day which is why I would my rare sentence would be that while we have many things worry about many things to be concerned about men angry about I share a lot of frustrations at the end of the day I disagree with my son of up I think is really much more vulnerable anything Israel is and I think all of us in care about the future of the Jewish people need to understand that without the Jewish thing the future of the Jewish people looks nothing like what we imagine it now to be and we have to figure out how to engage our response and our objections and our frustrations in such a way that nobody looks back and says we were the generation that actually fueled the work of European capitals and making sure that the Jewish state attends just by giving each of you and Dan you already just answer this question in one minute to talk about what you would say to a room full of progressive American Jews who say I can't find common ground with Israel because they don't recognize my Judaism and Danny you just gave an answer to that but I'd love to hear that home from a knot and rabbis interview it as well just to wrap it up how what do you say to american progressive jews who say i can't find common ground with israel and my answer is l would be to the first ah i would have thousand i do think some of my work in israel is about getting Israelis to acknowledge that the decisions they make it Israel have implications for the wider Jewish world would you sometimes here in Israel when there's a behemoth conversion is that how many children have Reform Jews where the mother is a reformed convert or thinking of making Aliyah for those 17 people we don't need a major job crisis or legislative cousins and my argument is always said it's not about the technical specificity of someone who was born in hville my colleague on the conversion it's about the fact that Israel now is so dominant in Jewish discourse that would Israel makes decision for Israelis it means to begin to understand that it sent a message to the entire Jewish world about who is considerate in or out and that matters and Israel has to assume responsibility for the position and now occupies in the general Jewish world my other answer would be far broader and it would be big oh there are two basic schools of morality and progressive Jews want to think of them sell it being very moral one way of being moral and a lot of assistance of thought is you are moral the more you distance yourself from life the less you eat the less you have sex better tips game completely the less you engage with people with money the morning distance yourself from life that higher you become as a moral person a lot of school systems have that Judaism that almost never had for Judaism the view of morality is that you become a moral person by engaging in love you are a moral person when you have when you eat a lot when you have sex when you deal with money and you do it within a system of rules but the notion is that you engage in love now once they do engage in life it becomes messy and dirty and morality can comes Messi and dirt and a lot of Jews especially progressive Jews and especially young ones have developed a vision of morality that says I am going to be moral by just doing nice things in Israel if this annoying scheme on being this beautiful progressive Christine identity so I'm just going to defend myself from that some of them engage in what I call active distancing I'm going to hold up a big sign that makes it clear to everyone that I've nothing to do with Israel then I could maintain my Christine progressive Jewish credentials which are now I value but I want to argue that that is the exact opposite of being moral person a Jewish person you are you become more moral when you engage in the messiness of lunch and weather Israel is it has been for the last decades and more is the greatest effort the Jewish people have ever engagement to engage more in life not just about community and family about how you deal with wars with enemies with budget with social justice and that's when it gets messy and problematic but if you want to be Jewish and moral to truly be progressive test yourself and give real issues real dilemmas real problem Monte's go to Israel if you haven't been you must go if you've been you have to go again and if you've been twice you got to go again it's not like Italy and France and Germany and all these other places we like to travel this is Israel that's our homeland this is us we have to go if your grandparents send your children and your grandchildren right if your parents send your children they want to go by there in tenth grade on a confirmation trip send them to Israel put the money aside make sure it happens the only way the only way this messiness is living like this really getting in trenches understanding all the nuances plexus is that the two of you have brought to life today and what it was brought to life in the other room the only way it's going to make any sense to us is if we go go to Israel end of story thank you everybody

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