Anglican Unscripted 473 – Meltdown in Diocese of Oxford

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The clergy in the Diocese of Oxford are upset with the direction their Bishops are going. Kevin and Gavin talk about the responses and the new Canterbury appointment for Rome.
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welcome to the Friday edition of Anglican unscripted episode 473 I'm Kevin Coulson and a fashion day is January the 11th and I'm getting used to the idea is 2019 it was January love and there's 2018 I'm not used to the idea again okay welcome to another show before we begin this is your audience participation before you have an opinion or a bias about how bad or good this show is I want you to like it this is this is you being faithful to the show you just you're gonna click I like it so go to Facebook go to YouTube wherever that little thumbs thing is click like if you've not subscribed yet you need to subscribe to the show you click on that little red button on YouTube and the bell next to it you'll get instant notifications about the next show we have a lot of comments going on apparently we're not wrong but there's a lots of things to talk about and we appreciate your going to youtube and commenting down the show and finally for you guys who want to not see your ugly faces in the morning and I completely understand I have to look in the mirror I know what you're seeing we have a podcast so you can just listen to the audio and you can find that in the show notes Gavin how are you doing I'm very well thank you exceptionally well I I'm dropping everything today but but wonderfully things have not broken terminal so they embossing them I hear you're visiting France yes I'm in France I'm I'm writing the files driving away the Hornets trying the drying it out thank you you're the only person I know who goes to France and shaves off their goatee yeah that's the place you go to grow the goatee you get nice to the thick and add a little cognac to it you don't do that this time already counterculture okay especially in France good thinking you now see why well listen alright I am the keeper of fortunes but you'll never know well let's talk a little bit about the news is lots of news going on certainly in the Church of England and it's gonna be fun to talk about because we'll talk about the Diocese of Oxford and if you guys have read on Anglican dink the that famous website out there that gives you all the news there was a letter from the clergy to the bishops there's Forbush there and the bishops have been leading a listing charge in we are hearing you charge in regards to sexuality and what the church can do and say about sexuality and these 100 clergy are a little concerned and I thought you and I could discuss there's lots of different headlines here but one of them is chaos in Oxford and I thought you and I could certainly discuss the meltdown that's going on and what's happening one of the ways we can look at this I think is to go back to the time when dr. Geoffrey John was nominated to be to be a bishop and in those days the which is only about ten years ago they're not very long yeah Bishop Harry rich Harris and in those days many of the larger biblical church is not so it says if you do this world with all no money we really will be very serious trouble indeed so serious that although Richard Harris was a very determined man and a very in many ways a very directive is an authoritarian Bishop he he was frightened dog because in the end money is the thing that changes minds in the Church of England more patter than anything else so now we have to give all credit to these 130 they're one hundred out of six hundred parishes so it's a very big big diocese and they've written saying we are concerned about the direction that you're taking the church now there are two problems in this first of all there is no there's no bite to their concern they don't say and if you go any further or if you don't come back we will turn the taps off that will gain the attention and the second problem is I'm reminded now at the analogy of a fairy but but best of all what is the response before I get to the fairy what is the response of the bishops they have said we're very pleased to have this letter from you because you are communicating with us and we want to tell you we're list it's a bit like Fraser Craig is the Church of England's version of race so so high I say the bishops we're listening and then it's not only that they're listening we hear you we hear you have a concern with the direction we're traveling and you know we want you to share the we yeah you because we do communication and do what pleases us know and about this is where communicating is you're speaking we're listening and we're hearing isn't this great but church is functioning as it should do now the problem with the direction issue is when you when you cross the channel you get on a ferry and then then then the ferry sets off and soon release plus six hours later in my case it arrives on the other side and the analogy that came to my mind is hearing these 100 splendid clergymen and no doubt women and I think the in between the blogs on the other side if you'll forgive me Pete why do you men away and they say in today to the captain and crew of the ferry we're not at all sure we want to go to your destination and the captain and crew start the boat and off it chunks across the channel and a conversation that takes place between the faithful biblical passages of the captain and the crew and the biblical passengers say we don't really want to end up the other side crew the captain say we hear you we're listening and six hours later they end up on the other side now the reason this matters is because there's nothing stopping the Church of England there's no repentance no turning round no second thoughts all all the kinetic energy is in favor of this direction and they will land on the other side so what does the other side look like one of the things that has moved me I think new things restrike you thought that doing that you give me email you're historic we're friends at it it stays with you a while and I had one of the yesterday and a friend of Mines advocating Darwin wrote it said I had to hire a car I went to the hire company and they gave me a car with a rainbow flag on the keys and all the sort of paperwork saying we we strongly support LGBT equal rights divert assert a inclusion whole whole mantra and he said there wasn't any point in my complaining the next time I go to this company what I expect is that I'll be invited to take a box saying I to as the customer support LGBT inclusive rights and then if I don't do that I may not be eligible to do business with this company and I think he's exactly right the problem is that the other side in this is actually the enemy of Christianity in the readings in the next ring this morning we had a wonderful letter for – John and we repeat this in my morning prayers we've been thinking a little bit about what love means and I had forgotten how well the Apostle John described love simply says love is this is walking in the commandments of the Lord there is no ambiguity in that what the commandments of the Lord are in terms of sexual identity and sexual behavior that's what love is it isn't what the Church of England says it is and so the problem for those who disagrees if they don't find some traction if there is no sanction attached to it they'll end up on the other side and in this case it's not the other side of the channel it is the enemy of God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ the other side seems to be wicked it's the best way I can put it because here in America we certainly have news that breaks out everyone swell of people who decide that they're gonna take a stand and not actively support a gay wedding or something like that and they have their business sued we have Jack Phillips I think that's his name in Colorado who won a court case but lo and behold that was for gay and lesbian weddings the transgenders are now suing him this month and it just there doesn't seem to be an end once you cross over to the other side and like you are saying there it's an argument with the captain maybe the Titanic you're going too fast there's icebergs around I hear you you understand this is the Titanic we can handle it now you're either gonna argue with him before the iceberg or after the iceberg and I I think the failure here is thinking that at the very end there'll be some repentance after you tell the the Church of England hey we told yourself no they're happy where they are they are happy where they are they I think different master there is a new crisis at university box and where does a historian I think he's called professor fittest yeah sure he's an eminent historian he's been there a long time and he's a practicing Roman Catholic in over the last twenty years he's written saying the problem with homosexuality is that it doesn't he doesn't work and and that much of our civilization feels it's a deviation that is problematic and he quotes he quits Plato and Aristotle and Virgil now in fact Plato Plato is very familiar with with Greek pedophilia and homosexuality right quite a lot about it he describes it but he's also very clear that as a way of building a society it is both sterile and immoral and so significant classical voices in philosophy and history and Richard say this is not the way to build a society what Plato says is that the problem with practitioners of homosexuality is that they give way they make pleasure their first virtue and they give way to pleasure too much and if you have a society that gives way to pleasure it won't develop the virtues that it needs to survive and although we dress this up as love it's really about pleasure it's about sexual intimacy and if this mask by the fact that we misuse are worthless now he this poor this poor this this eminent Oxford historian of course is facing calls for a dismissal by colleagues and students who are lining up to sign petitions to get rid of him he might survive he might not survive but the problem is that the other side is one where the freedom of speech is absolutely at the other side is on whether where they are attacking the freedom of speech so at least I stopped there was because I had another thought this show is about our thoughts what's your other thought I thought was I could me email this morning from from a man who's a well-known prophetic figure in Protestant circles in England and he wrote to me sending Gavin I've been praying and the Lord has been telling neither it really in trouble over brexit because the EU is not on the right side and actually I think he's right this isn't just a matter of politics the EU 10 years ago that is very best to create a constitution and wiped Christianity out of its own history and self understanding so the EU has not been friendly to Christianity and shows no sign of ease and is ACCA's promoting all these values itself however he wrote to me saying you're a public figure and you are easy to calm Williams please explain why gaff Khan is not speaking out loud in the way that you are and I live at him and said well I do in my gaff comradely and I have a real mutuality with my friends were part of it and I believe in what they're doing I would compete supporter but I'm not recognised by them and therefore I do speak of this but you have to ask them why they don't and I think no but I wasn't rippin say there's a very strong convention of Christians don't get involved in political positions because of Christian water normally you can imagine Christians who would not be for psychological political philosophical cultural reasons taking different views on politics we should allow each other the freedom to do that I think there are moments in history I mean Hitler wouldn't we want them there are moments in history when you see certain virtues being closed down and the virtues would have been closed down here are the the the sanctity of the human being in other words we are we're not just objects of pleasure not seeking pleasure freedom of speech we desperately need freedom of speech what we can't tell people about Jesus we can't tell people that they need they need to repent in order to find the love of God and without without freedom of speech and the sanctity of the individual both of which are threatened by the cultural movement we have Christians are in dire trouble now if Christians who are against brexit feel that they can provide political solutions that keep the sanctity of human beings and keep freedom of speech then bring it on because we can go forward together but they don't have they aren't and I think my prophetic friend is right I think that the people ought to do the math as you say and discover that the present movement both in terms of cultural sexuality and this submission to a global or other global czar onward to 20 large political body that has no democratic accountability it really matters it is ironic that you're trying to leave Europe like America tried to leave England not so long ago so many centuries ago but just this week Rowan Williams said hey listen you know it's time to to just get rid of this this is it fifty referent Constitution 50×50 and maybe have another referendum and just to well be he is not happy with how it's going to and he fears that you know the the European Union will be mad at us and we're just not going to be doing this right obviously Archbishop's and former Archbishop's or you know still involved in in polity in you can't look at the Old Testament New Testament and say there were no politics there so clearly we we have to have an allowance for leaders and lay leaders in politics but my problem is nobody is backing up and using scripture to justify their politics they're using other things the the the the the spirit of the age more than the you scripture I I think it's hard to use biblical verses to say we have to achieve brexit I think it's a more competent situation than I agree which is why what I try to do is to say look we have to value systems well which one of these value systems allow us to be the church better and I think democratic accountability and freedom of speech are are essential to being mature you can be a church without it but you have to do it in a totalitarian regime where where you hide away in the catacombs and whilst I think that's coming I'd like to pursue that I'd like to be able to go out onto the streets and onto YouTube and talk about Jesus and and the commandments because supposed to walk in without being ostracized or or cut off so I I don't understand why for example Justin Welby who cook in the House of Lords the other day and he said my dice this doesn't want to defend it to a lorry park so for the common good let us not take that my diocese in sloka let us delay article 50 and I would like to say to Justin Welby I agree it would be horrid have your diocese turned into a lorry park this is not a nice thing no on the other hand your diocese should not be a democratic free speech free zone it's better than half part glorious them to lose those why can't why don't you see that well some people with common sense in a king no doubt not tomorrow said you know in this Bangla Carter it's okay to give rights to citizens and allow landowners to have some vote in what happens in polity and somehow that's been forgotten in England you know they may be it may be you're right it may be this is essentially a transaction to do with power and one of the reasons why the bishops and the Archbishop's the Church of England like it is because they are power brokers they are powerful and power speaks to power they they they're okay they belong to a group electrical power yeah behind the scenes they're in power but here's the paradox they keep on saying they're talking of the powerless they keep on saying that this is about the common good but actually it's use about them that they're their tribal good their narrow collective could rather that rather than the good news I hope II so I'm I I would be nice it even to have a debate about it but of course the present country won't even allow a debate either the BBC nor the newspapers give people who are pro freedom of speech and pro-choice democratically a platform to do it know if you are if you have no ability to communicate they'll give you the complete form to do so if you're a horrible speaker and you support something they don't support they'll let you speak and they'll say this is see that gobsmacked that's just how they speak and that's why we don't support the people who want to keep article 50 that's ridiculous and so yeah they they do promote the people who are not a good voice for a cause but if you have an intelligent person somebody who can dissuade the like the climate change arguments going on right now you know they won't get a place at all of the BBC in the same with Christianity it's the way it is however let's not go too far here because I see you know the news two weeks ago was the representative for the Church of England in Rome or they may be an easy trick to deal in Turkey anyone thinking he's Australian Australia all right well the the previous guy got canned because he was having trouble with his sexual ethics they got a new guy his name is the very Reverend dr. John Sheppard and he's going to be the new Canterbury representative to the Holy See dr. Sheppard has a different opinion than myself on the resurrection he doesn't believe it happened he thinks it was a happy fantasy was no bodily resurrection it was a kind of spiritual rejuvenation of hope in the imagination of the Christ figure produced by the cerebral cortexes trans something whatever the physical or physiological member station was of the early believers and consequently it's all about inspiration and about fact so he doesn't believe in the resurrection and that really means in most people's in most books he's not a Christian who had let's be clear to the for the audience here if there will excuse me little choked up here if there was no resurrection it's all a lie everything in acts on is an absolute lie if there was no resurrection if Jesus wasn't resurrected so you know when he appeared on the road to Emmaus he didn't appear wasn't happy he appeared in he didn't appear when he appear but yeah so he appear before Paul song he didn't do nicely so the problem is this man has been made he's been given a job is essentially the whole of Anglicanism representative to the Holy See and David old quite rightly as discovered a sermon where chapter and verse he denies the resurrection and then the question is asked what is the Archbishop of Canterbury doing having this man is his personal representative the Pope now cranber– the dear Blessed a hatred the Hilton was written a fulsome defense of Justin Welby as he often does in my view on weaker and weaker ground as the days go by and under this one he says he mustn't blame the the CEO of the organization because he delegated this to some of his juniors and they screwed up so there's no way so the CEO should have responsibility for the people below him to whom he delegate things screwing up and that's not a very good principle of management of any organization but that's the argument put forward and the replies of that is but if the people who had appointed him those of board to take sponsibility forward if they had thought for a moment but a man with these views was unacceptable completely unacceptable to the Archbishop of Canterbury they wouldn't have appointed you let's say they were wrong let's say they made a mistake about that and that they thought he would be acceptable but Justin Welby does not find it acceptable that of course it would we have come to Justin Welby to say I repudiate either the appointment or the very least his news has Justin well he said anything of the kind of course he has well in reality to be successful at this job all mr. Shepherd has to do is keep his pants on because they'll fire you if you if you're I have some sexual issues over in Rome but it I don't think the theology here matters well it would be an improvement on the on the last man actually to be many well let us not called medieval Catholic system of comparing sins and making a hierarchy of let's just say that the idea of Christian virtue is those people that saw and believed in presentation but for him not to believe in the resurrection sends signals out to the rest of the church and particularly to the Catholic Church that we are a Christian delight organization ironically if Christ was not resurrected the actions of the previous ambassador to Rome weren't wrong well that's just me so sorry so that's the news we have so far anything yes you want to cover no I think a cup of tea I think that will cover what are you headed back to England if they let you back either I the 4 a.m. Sunday morning or 4 a.m. Tuesday morning depending on some variables I have to get worked out make sure that ferry captain listens to you ok ok sure I'm sure good disagreements you'll get the other side oh great I'm Kevin Carlson I'm Gavin Ashton you've been patiently listening there so 473 of acne for that's good of the alerts objective in 2009 you

22 thoughts on “Anglican Unscripted 473 – Meltdown in Diocese of Oxford

  1. I agree with so many of Gavin's views. But why the blind spot on the many blasphemys of Catholic doctrine? They are no less Christ-denying than what the sex/gender revolution militants are promoting

  2. "They are wicked" doesn't really do justice to them. My kids use wicked to mean cool. Those people are plain evil. Not only that they are mendacious and vindictive as well.
    To call them sick would be a kindness. They are deliberately and with malice using the current climate where others are tolerant to drive their ambitions for intolerance toward others.
    However, as the saying goes Pride ( in all its modern forms) goes before a fall. I am sure that sooner or later they will fall just as they have in the past.

  3. In contrary to what Gavin says regarding "We can't use scripture to choose Brexit". Now.. regardless of our personal political stance on Brexit, one thing is stated in the scriptures. Its in Genesis 11 Verses 1 – 9. Why do I bring this up?  Well, the EU Parliament Building in Strasbourg has been built as a replica of the Tower of Babel. What does the Tower of Babel represent? It represents REBELLION against God. I have read that when asked about this, an EU staff personnel replied "We built the Parliament Building in the image of the Tower of Babel to finish what Nimrod failed to do 3000 years ago". That statement to me as a Christian is more than slightly worrying. In these times of critical world instability, we need to look to the gospels more than ever. Gavin is right.. the EU are definitely not friendly towards Christians.

  4. I read the story the other day of an Orthodox priest who in 1893 attended a conference in Chicago that brought together representatives of all the world religions. Here he shared his opinion that he believed all religions were one and it didn’t matter what name you gave the god you worship. When he returned home later to his parish in Brooklyn and went to church he discovered that when he put his key in the lock it didn’t turn. His parishioners had already changed the locks! Oh for a church like that which is true to the Apostolic Faith handed down by our Lord. Unfortunately the Church of England (and my Church in Wales) is not like that and hasn’t been for a long time.

  5. I read the story the other day of an Orthodox priest who in 1893 attended a conference in Chicago that brought together representatives of all the world religions. Here he shared his opinion that he believed all religions were one and it didn’t matter what name you gave the god you worship. When he returned home later to his parish in Brooklyn and went to church he discovered that when he put his key in the lock it didn’t turn. His parishioners had already changed the locks! Oh for a church like that which is true to the Apostolic Faith handed down by our Lord. Unfortunately the Church of England (and my Church in Wales) is not like that and hasn’t been for a long time.

  6. It doesn’t seem to me that the protesters were at all clear what they actually wanted in their letter. The only specific issue they seemed to raise was whether LGBT people are allowed to be ordained. At the start of the letter they say they support the idea that people should not be blocked from ordination because of their orientation. Then half way down they complain that they don’t think LGBT people should be ordained. Well which is it?! This issue is further confused by the fact that at least two of the ordained people to sign this letter are gay.

    It’s been CofE official policy, if not always in practice, that gay people (and I think also trans) can be ordained since at least Lambeth 1.10. Yet the vast majority of the signatories were ordained since then. (This is because the Anglican issue is with sexual behaviour, not orientation.) So they are threatening to leave over an issue that they were happy enough with 10-20 years ago simply because it has been restated.

    The only other issue I can actually see raised in the letter is that they don’t want to end up being treated in exactly the same way that they are currently treating LGBT people. Surely this makes more of a case against zero-sum-gamers than for them?!

    I think if the protesters can’t write in clear and consistent English what they are actually opposing then they aren’t even going to be able to communicate their problem, let alone have it resolved. Frankly I suspect they don’t really want a resolution.

    I got as far in the video as Ashenden describing homosexuality as paedophilia and switched off. Are you guys for the truth or are you just for bashing the gays?!

  7. Perhaps those who wrote the letter should remind the Bishop that he will have to stand before the judgement seat of Christ. Perhaps they could repeat it loudly and clearly. Just maybe it could have some (positive) effect.

  8. –You've convinced my my beard needs to remain while the pounds and chins do. Working on losing the latter two at least.

    –The Frasier Crane/"I'm listening" reference is a good one. It reminds me of professional assessment in seminary where a counseling professor told me he affirmed me as a person. I was so glad he didn't affirm me a turnip or something.

  9. I'm afraid the Oxford protestors are far too late and far too timid. (I've also noted that a major evangelical church in Reading is not included at all in the protest; so the protestors are either uncoordinated or disagreeing amongst themselves) Gavin Ashenden is absolutely right: if these people intend to have any effect at this late stage in the game, they must withdraw financial support from the diocese of Oxford.

  10. MY – and my beloved partner's – homosexuality is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! Get back in your sanctimonious pulpit! And what does "The problem with homosexuality is that it doesn't work!", mean? Do you mean biologically? Or do you mean in the sense of 'eros' and 'agape'? My partner and I are now retired, and so the 'eros' is less than it was in 1983; but I can assure you that the LOVE still 'works'. Like the rest of the Church, you two are obsessed with BIOLOGY. We are talking about LOVE. Unfortunately, you two are so correct on many issues: but like the rest of the Church, you lose it on sex. What little we have from the supposed words of Jesus, concerning human relationships, is very little; and seems to focus on the QUALITY in those relationships. You both need to learn that the Sabbath was made for man; and not the other way around!

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